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Old 03-31-2018, 06:18 PM   #1
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Whatís your take on this?

Was reading this article on Revzillaís Common Tread about a law suit against the track day organization ĎKeigwins at The Trackí. The rider who crashed is suing, even though he signed a waiver. Read the whole article and watch the video, although I donít agree with what the rider said why he crashed but there is a small point that is made regarding the off track ďobstaclesĒ that could be a sticking point in the law suit.

https://www.revzilla.com/common-trea...%7C%20Combined
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Old 03-31-2018, 09:50 PM   #2
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happens, Kimís a happy sue . This is what's wrong with our country, people wanting monetary gain without earning anything.
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Old 04-01-2018, 02:21 AM   #3
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There shouldn't have a been a sand bag there, that's one of the reasons riding in the streets is dangerous, moving and fixed obstacles that can make a crash worse or cause a crash.
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Old 04-01-2018, 07:44 AM   #4
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I have a lot of thoughts on this, I donít know where I truly stand. I think both partyís are to blame. But Iíve heard and read multiple conflicting reports about what session it happened in, whether or not he made the riders meeting, and whether or not the sand bags were addressed at the riders meeting.

1) the sand bags should not have been there. Even if that isnít a likely run off spot, the point of going to the track is to push the limits in a safe environment, and I donít believe that was safe. No way those would be there if motogp or wsbk were running. Not sure who is the responsible party to remove them (track or keigwins) but this all could have been avoided if they werenít there.

2) since they were there, the trackday org should have known about them (checking the track for safety hazards in the morning) and therefore addressed them in the riders meeting. Iíve heard they did, and Iíve heard they didnít. Iíve had multiple track day orgs at multiple tracks warn us in the riders meeting about sketchy areas, and to 1. Take a look on your first couple laps and 2. Maybe pull it back to 8/10 in those areas.

3) Rider responsibility. If he didnít attend the riders meeting and this was covered, and this incident didnít occur on one of the first two laps of the first session, I have a hard time feeling bad for him. Riders meetings are mandatory for a reason, for like this. And secondly your first laps out on a track in the morning should always be focused on seeing the track, whatís different since the last time you were there, and possible safety hazards (runoff, bumps, new pavement, cracks, etc). If you donít feel safe riding the track, pull off and ask for a refund citing safety reasons, or just donít run that day. You have to be responsible for your own safety. A couple weeks ago I was at SoCal supermoto and the first thing I did was find all the places on the track I didnít want to run off.

4) the waiver. I have never read one, and I doubt 99% of the people on this forum have. I know there are legal terms in there and yada yada yada. Iíve always interpreted that waiver as ďif I it, itís on me and no one elseĒ. Itís also a stern reminder every morning of how dangerous what we love to do is.

5) Iím a little irked by the trackday org asking for money via their go fund me. Seems a little resiculous and sketchy, donít they have insurance and lawyers for this? I know that multiple trackday orgs have had to settle with customers before, and it didnít kill trackdays. Why now? And this guy already sued Laguna and lost (I believe) so what happens to all that money if the trackday org wins? Iím sure theyíll sue the riders lawyers for the legal fees

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Old 04-01-2018, 09:48 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPR View Post
I have a lot of thoughts on this, I donít know where I truly stand. I think both partyís are to blame. But Iíve heard and read multiple conflicting reports about what session it happened in, whether or not he made the riders meeting, and whether or not the sand bags were addressed at the riders meeting.

1) the sand bags should not have been there. Even if that isnít a likely run off spot, the point of going to the track is to push the limits in a safe environment, and I donít believe that was safe. No way those would be there if motogp or wsbk were running. Not sure who is the responsible party to remove them (track or keigwins) but this all could have been avoided if they werenít there.

2) since they were there, the trackday org should have known about them (checking the track for safety hazards in the morning) and therefore addressed them in the riders meeting. Iíve heard they did, and Iíve heard they didnít. Iíve had multiple track day orgs at multiple tracks warn us in the riders meeting about sketchy areas, and to 1. Take a look on your first couple laps and 2. Maybe pull it back to 8/10 in those areas.

3) Rider responsibility. If he didnít attend the riders meeting and this was covered, and this incident didnít occur on one of the first two laps of the first session, I have a hard time feeling bad for him. Riders meetings are mandatory for a reason, for like this. And secondly your first laps out on a track in the morning should always be focused on seeing the track, whatís different since the last time you were there, and possible safety hazards (runoff, bumps, new pavement, cracks, etc). If you donít feel safe riding the track, pull off and ask for a refund citing safety reasons, or just donít run that day. You have to be responsible for your own safety. A couple weeks ago I was at SoCal supermoto and the first thing I did was find all the places on the track I didnít want to run off.

4) the waiver. I have never read one, and I doubt 99% of the people on this forum have. I know there are legal terms in there and yada yada yada. Iíve always interpreted that waiver as ďif I it, itís on me and no one elseĒ. Itís also a stern reminder every morning of how dangerous what we love to do is.

5) Iím a little irked by the trackday org asking for money via their go fund me. Seems a little resiculous and sketchy, donít they have insurance and lawyers for this? I know that multiple trackday orgs have had to settle with customers before, and it didnít kill trackdays. Why now? And this guy already sued Laguna and lost (I believe) so what happens to all that money if the trackday org wins? Iím sure theyíll sue the riders lawyers for the legal fees
1) According to the article, the sand bags were there to prevent run off from going onto the track and that the responsibility of removing or warning about them is on the track day organization. In a sense, this could mean they were left there to ensure the safety of the track as being in the spring time, rain is possible.

2) Again, according to the article, the rider had missed the rider meeting but what isnít said for sure, is whether Kiegwins mentioned them being there during the riders meeting.

3) Goes along with item 2 but have to agree, you are ultimately responsible for your own safety and itís up to you to review the course and itís surroundings. If something doesnít sit right with you, report it or back out.

4) In all honesty, I think Iíve only fully read one waiver start to finish and that was the one for California Superbike School several years ago. Subsequent waivers I do a quick glance over, probably shouldnít but canít get on the track unless you sign it. The one thing that should be the responsibility of the track day organization, is the safety of the track and to some degree, (if applicable) the run off areas. At the very least, let riders know of any and all hazards, on or off the track.

5) I think the reason for the go fund me, is that the plaintiff is asking for more than the amount Keigwinís insurance covers. Kim is asking for 7M, the max Keigwin is covered for is 5M. As fas Kim suing Laguna Seca, SCAMP and even Mazda, not sure if it even went to trial, according to this article, a judge threw their law suit out. Based on the track agreement with Keigwin, they have the responsibility of ensuring the track and run off areas are safe, meaning that Laguna Seca, SCAMP and Mazda were not responsible once Keigwin took charge of the track that day. Whether this outcome will have a big effect on future track days is yet to be seen. However it could drive the cost up if people can sue for huge amounts of money, particularly if that amount is beyond ones coverage. As it is now, a lot of riders I know want to do a track day but complain about the cost. They much prefer to take their chances on public roads than paid for track time.

As much as I donít like to say this, the run off areas could have been modified to allow a wider safety margin if one had run off the track. As a track day participant, we assume that the people running the track day are aware of any and all safety hazards and that they know what is and isnít a danger to us. Thatís what they ultimately are getting paid for. What would help Keigwin here is if they can produce witnesses who will say that these hazards were discussed at the riders meeting and since he missed the meeting, he has no claim.

On the other side, what I donít agree with is the riderís statement of why he crashed. I personally believe that after he told his story, someone filled his head with visions of a law suit and so he created the conditions of why he crashed. However, a cursory review of the video, doesnít show this to be the case. Itís really a double edge sword, regardless of why he crashed, the off track obstacles appeared to be a hazard.
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Old 04-01-2018, 01:31 PM   #6
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Apparently he was testing what a motorcycle feels like at 40, 45, and 50 degree lean angles for a self stabilizing, enclosed vehicle his company Lit motors is working on.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lianeyv.../#25d63b4d58c4

Bet a $7M dollar payout would help with the development especially as he’s taken $900 deposits for the first 1000 units

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Old 04-01-2018, 02:35 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonybeau View Post
Apparently he was testing what a motorcycle feels like at 40, 45, and 50 degree lean angles for a self stabilizing, enclosed vehicle his company Lit motors is working on.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lianeyv.../#25d63b4d58c4

Bet a $7M dollar payout would help with the development especially as heís taken $900 deposits for the first 1000 units
That was another thought of mine as to why someone would ask for so much in a law suit, instant funding! Iím curious to see how this turns out.
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Old 04-01-2018, 04:03 PM   #8
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I'm sorry you run off the track you F'd up by riding way over your skill! You ride in control that means staying on the track if you ride off then it is on you. The guy is is an hat and needs to be counter sued. Being on a race track is dangerous and you sign a waiver for a reason you control the bike not the people who allow you to ride on it. My expectation on a track is no on coming traffic nothing else did I say riding is dangerous! Rule NUMBER1 ride in control he did not. Please put me on the jury! I was a skydiver and people sued because of their stupidity and a video taped waiver was instituted and lawsuits dwindled.
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Old 04-01-2018, 06:40 PM   #9
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The owner of Keigwins is not using insurance. This is a bullshit lawsuit and he is taking go fund me donations from trackday enthusiasts to hire a legal team and get it thrown out of court. If this goes to trial, it will have grave repercussions for all trackday providers. Please contribute if you attend trackdays.

https://www.gofundme.com/4rxg9hec
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One persistent mistake I see riders make when trying to ride faster: Using too much lean, too late in the corner, well after the apex of a turn. This is precisely where you want to be on the gas not increasing lean. Remedy: use reference points for tip in and use a strong countersteer input to quickly flick the bike to max lean at tip in
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Old 04-01-2018, 07:29 PM   #10
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Old 04-01-2018, 08:00 PM   #11
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Yeah, sorry you crashed dude but there was no negligence here. Those bags are there for reasons and even if they weren't there you roll the dice when you leave the track - , people have died because they ran off and ended up colliding with something instead of laying it down earlier. Really hope this gets thrown out, if track days end up costing $800 you can kiss American participation in road racing in the US or anywhere in the world goodbye
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Old 04-02-2018, 07:09 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D675R View Post
The owner of Keigwins is not using insurance. This is a bullshit lawsuit and he is taking go fund me donations from trackday enthusiasts to hire a legal team and get it thrown out of court. If this goes to trial, it will have grave repercussions for all trackday providers. Please contribute if you attend trackdays.

https://www.gofundme.com/4rxg9hec
Now that makes sense. I probably read that in the article but it didn't register. I did see that the amount being asked for was 7M and Keigwins was only insured for 5M.
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Old 04-02-2018, 09:44 PM   #13
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In similar news, not a good situation with the Washington road racing association. I know we donít have many racers here but Iím sure the track days will be hurt too. Not good not good. Word has it that a rider didnít buckle his helmet, and it came off when he crashed. I heard that through Facebook, So take that for what itís worth

WMRRA Announcement
Round 1, 2018 Season

---FOR IMMEDIATE PUBLIC AND MEDIA RELEASE---

The Washington Motorcycle Road Racing Association is disappointed to announce the official cancellation of Round 1, at Pacific Raceways in Kent Washington.

In September 2017, WMRRA was notified of our then current insurance provider McNaughton, that the association had been absolved of liability regarding an on-track incident during the 2013 race-season. This incident resulted in a lawsuit naming both WMRRA and Pacific Raceways. Although WMRRA was absolved of liability, an arbitration judgment was made against the association's insurance policy which covered the track as an 'Additional insured' party for the race event. WMRRA race-staff had not been asked for testimony, or deposition during this arbitration.

2 weeks prior to our policy renewal date of March 1st- WMRRA was notified that its coverage would not be renewed. 6 weeks later, we have yet to procure an insurance provider willing to offer coverage, due to the judgment. Because WMRRA is unable to secure or guarantee, proper liability coverage we must announce the cancellation for Round 1 of the 2018 season, at Pacific Raceways.

Novices- Because we can not risk the association to litigation without proper insurance coverage, we will be refunding the On-track portion of your NRS fee. Once you complete your NRS on-track portion, WMRRA will issue your novice license as standard. WMRRA will be refunding $200 of your licensing fee, and Mark DeGross with 2-Fast has graciously agreed to offer special pricing in consideration of the situation. Please contact 2-Fast directly to arrange the NRS track-event on 4/13.

On a personal note- We greatly appreciate the outpouring of support and recommendations for providers. WMRRA leadership, in partnership with OMRRA, AFM, and other 3rd parties are still working very hard to ensure success for the remainder of the 2018 race-season.

Thank you.

Oregon Motorcycle Road Racing Association, American Federation of Motorcyclists (AFM), RoadracingWorld.com, WERA Motorcycle Roadracing, American Motorcyclist Association
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Old 04-02-2018, 10:03 PM   #14
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That is a bummer. Yeah, wearing your safety gear is on you, not exactly sure how you can target someone else for that. Oddly, in America it is much easier to sue in general and sue for things like that, than in other parts of the world.

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Old 04-02-2018, 10:16 PM   #15
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Just fkn ridiculous.
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Old 04-12-2018, 08:29 AM   #16
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I do agree though that the sandbags should have been removed. Other than that I can't really say much. I did read between the lines, so I don't know if they are both in on it to take the insurance money at it's maximum. Seems sketchy on both ends.
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